Former Indian Intelligence Chief Says U.S. Businessman Mansoor Ijaz Worked for Pakistani Spy Agency, States: Mansoor Ijaz 'Was Certainly Working for the ISI; There Is No Doubt About It'

U.S. businessman Mansoor Ijaz (image courtesy: dunyanews.tv)

In a recent interview, A.S. Dulat, former chief of Research & Analysis Wing (RAW, India's external intelligence apparatus), stated that U.S. businessman Mansoor Ijaz, whose role in destabilizing the elected Pakistani government is under scrutiny, has worked for the Pakistani military's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI).

The ISI is a leading Pakistani spy agency known for its support of terrorist groups in Afghanistan and India as well as for its role in forming political alliances in Pakistan to effect changes in government to suit its interests. In Pakistani public opinion, the ISI is seen as the all-powerful force in the country, and as also dictating Pakistan's foreign policy with regard to the U.S., Afghanistan, and Kashmir.

Mansoor Ijaz, who is of Pakistani origin, has alleged that it was at the behest of the Pakistani Ambassador Husain Haqqani that he got former U.S. National Security Advisor James Jones to deliver a memo to Admiral Mike Mullen. The allegation is that the government of President Asif Zardari feared a military coup after the U.S.'s May 2011 killing of Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad, and that through the controversial memo it sought help from the U.S. Mansoor Ijaz disclosed the existence of the memo in an article published in The Financial Times of London, forcing Ambassador Haqqani to quit his post and return to Pakistan to defend himself in a now-controversial "Memogate" case before Pakistan's Supreme Court. The argument that the Pakistani government faced a military coup after the May 2011 Abbottabad operation appears weak, as the Pakistani Army suffered a crisis of credibility for its inability to prevent the unilateral U.S. operation to kill Osama bin Laden, and was so weak it could not have effected a coup.

Concerns have been outlined in the Pakistani media that Mansoor Ijaz might be working against the civilian government to the advantage of the Pakistani military and its Inter-Services Intelligence. In London, Mansoor Ijaz met with ISI chief Lt.-Gen. Shuja Pasha, who examined the authenticity of the memo through Mansoor Ijaz's alleged conversations on his BlackBerry with Husain Haqqani. Mansoor Ijaz has indicated that he will visit Pakistan to be deposed in the Memogate case before a judicial commission in January 2012.

In his interview, with the Indian website rediff.com, former RAW chief A.S. Dulat argued that Mansoor Ijaz is an international operator and manipulator who could be working for multiple intelligence agencies simultaneously. Stating that Ijaz has "definitely" worked for the ISI of Pakistan, the former RAW chief noted that Ijaz arrived in India a decade ago and claimed that he had connections to then-U.S. President Bill Clinton and that he could help resolve the Kashmir issue. Speaking about the Memogate controversy, Dulat stated: "My guess is he may have been working for many agencies. But he was certainly working for the ISI There is no doubt about it."

Following are excerpts from the interview:[1]

"[Mansoor Ijaz] Said [to Indian Officials] that He Had a Line to [President Bill] Clinton; Ijaz Obviously is An International Player, an International Operator"

Part I of the Interview:

Q: "How do you look at Memogate? What is your reading of the entire episode?"

A.S. Dulat: "It has shaken up the civil-military relationship (in Pakistan), and the whole story is not out yet; it is just beginning to unravel. Whether the story comes to a halt here, or it goes on and on...

"To quote Mansoor Ijaz himself, he said there is something darker and deeper in this. If we go by that then this story is not yet over. There may be more parts to it. But obviously the main target of Memogate was Husain Haqqani. and now Haqqani has been removed [from his post as Pakistani ambassador to the U.S.].

"Inevitably I think this will take a greater toll, and my own feeling is that it will hit President Zardari. Zardari has succeeded in sending Sherry Rehman as ambassador to America and Sherry is, I think, as much a liberal as Haqqani was.

"In fact, she is very hooked on to certain things, she is very much against terror, is very much for women's rights, and she is not very flattering towards the military. Although some newspapers suggested that she has a decent relationship with the military.

"In Pakistan, to survive in any case, you have to have a relationship with the military. Haqqani has written a book and been very critical about not only terrorism but radicalism, the Pakistani military, and the ISI. It's all on record.

"The military was never very happy with Haqqani…"

Q: "How many times did Mansoor Ijaz came to India?"

A.S. Dulat: "I don't know. But he was around here [in India] in 2000-2001. Maybe he came twice. If you remember, before that Farooq Kathwari (the chairman of a well-known furniture company in the U.S.) used to come. He followed, in a sense, in Kathwari's footsteps.

"When Kathwari stopped coming, we heard of Mansoor Ijaz. He used to talk about big names, I think he even said that he had a line to Clinton...."

Q: "President Bill Clinton?"

A.S. Dulat: "Yes, Bill Clinton. The idea he was selling was that if you want things (to solve the Kashmir issue) and if the Americans are on board, I can also get Pakistan on board.

"Mansoor Ijaz obviously is an international player, an international operator, and an international interlocutor. If you watch him on television - I've never seen the man (in person) - he's slick, suave, and is a very good talker. He knows how to impress people.

"The question that people are asking is: Who is he working for?

"My guess is he may have been working for many agencies. But he was certainly working for the ISI. There is no doubt about it. In an interview he talks about the ISI being out of control. He says that is what prompted both that memo and also what he wrote recently for The Financial Times.

"If that is so, then why did he spend four hours in some hotel in London with the DG [Director General Lt.-Gen. Shuja Pasha] of ISI? If the ISI is out of control, then what is he doing with the DG, ISI? Why is he hobnobbing with the ISI?

"So obviously you know whatever other agency he works for, he's definitely got a good link with the ISI. That is Mansoor Ijaz."

"Even in Pakistan He's Playing It Both Ways…; Although He Claims that the ISI was Out of Control And that the ISI was Getting Too Big for Its Boots; Actually He was Hobnobbing with the ISI"

Q: "Isn't it true that you were a part of the team who invited him to India to be an interlocutor in Kashmir?"

A.S. Dulat: "No, no, no, that is absolutely wrong. As I said I've never seen him, I've never met him, and I was not part of any team. But yes, I heard about the gentleman, I heard that he was here (in New Delhi) and that he was claiming certain things.

"I heard he was meeting people and also Kashmiris, and the line he was trying to sell at that point of time was – if the Americans are on board and if you want to move forward on Kashmir, I can help you with the Kashmiris and I can help you with Pakistan as well."

Q: "Don't you think in a way he fooled or misled India?"

A.S. Dulat : "You know these operators. I don't want to use intelligence jargon and say he was a double agent or a double agent, but as I said, he's a smooth operator. So I'm not surprised he fooled us [i.e. Indian officials] or anybody.

"When I think of this whole Memogate thing, it is quite possible that at that point of time, whenever this memo was sent, he was possibly suggesting to the civilian government in Pakistan that you could have a coup in Pakistan and therefore we need to warn the Americans.

"And today he may be telling the ISI that: 'Look, your civilian government is getting out of your control so you better control it.' So it's possible that even in Pakistan he's playing it both ways."

Q: "At whose behest did he trap Haqqani into dictating the memo?"

A.S. Dulat: "I think on his own initiative. It is not the question of who wanted to trap Haqqani. Haqqani was possibly on the ISI or the Pakistan military radar for a long time. They were not very happy with him.

"And you know that with regard to American financial aid also, there was an issue as to why the military was left out. Considering that this memo was given to Admiral Mike Mullen, I don't think the Pakistani military had been very happy with Mullen's outburst before he left office.

"All this has contributed to the event. If the American chairman of the joint chiefs of staff has been so critical of the Pakistani military, then what is their ambassador doing in Washington?

Q: "That means Ijaz is most likely helping the Pakistan army by exposing Haqqani? Correct?"

A.S. Dulat: "Absolutely. That's why I'm saying that although he claims that the ISI was out of control and that the ISI was getting too big for its boots. Actually he was hobnobbing with the ISI. So he was playing..."

"I Think [Husain] Haqqani is Speaking the Truth More Than Mansoor Ijaz is"

Q: "Games with [then-Ambassador Husain] Haqqani?"

A.S. Dulat: "Yes, games within games within games. And my feeling is that he may have fooled both sides. I don't know what prompted him to write the FT article and leak the story.

"That's why I'm saying that in Pakistan everything is a mystery.

Q: "Ijaz is an American citizen. Why is he out to harm American interests in Pakistan?"

A.S. Dulat: "Have you noticed for so long he has not been in Washington? He has been more in London and elsewhere in Europe. And if you ask me, on the face of it, I think Haqqani is speaking the truth more than Mansoor Ijaz is. Definitely.

"Whatever, the inside story – Haqqani is more trustworthy."

"The Army Could not Have been As Comfortable As They have Been with [President] Zardari; Now It Seems that the Honeymoon is Beginning to End"

Part II of the Interview:

Q: "Did Husain Haqqani, the then-Pakistani ambassador to the U.S., make the mistake of dictating the message through Blackberry?"

A.S. Dulat: "I don't know whether he dictated it or didn't. It's only one person's word against another. What Haqqani has been telling the Pakistan government is that you can take all my phones, all my devices, and check the record, I'm not in this at all.

"So possibly, Mansoor Ijaz must have been kept in the loop.

"The other interesting part of this issue is that we should know that when a coup happens at all in Pakistan it happens at the most unexpected time.

"In 2011 there has never been any indication, either before the death of Osama bin Laden or after. Moreso, after the death of Osama, the Pakistan army has been so defensive that there was no chance of a coup."

"Whenever you talk about the military in Pakistan or more specifically about (Pakistan army chief) General [Ashfaq Pervez] Kayani, the response is that he is not interested in taking over, he's not (then-Pakistan president and army chief General Pervez) Musharraf.

"He wants that the military should remain supreme, as it always has been in Pakistan, and that it should have control over foreign policy. But he still wants a civilian government as a front, and Asif Ali Zardari suited everybody.

"President Zardari was the most convenient person for everybody and also for the army, because the army could not have been as comfortable as they have been with Zardari. Now it seems that the honeymoon is beginning to end, and suddenly Imran Khan has become a new factor in Pakistan.

"He (Imran Khan) talks about a tsunami, about a wave in Pakistan, and has been telling all the television channels that 'You can bet on me, I will not only win next time, I will win hands down' …."

"[Mansoor Ijaz Indicated] that He Can Influence Kashmiris and has a Line to High Places in the United States and a Line to Pakistan…; He's not a Kashmiri; Kashmir is Not of Any Consequence to Him; What is of Consequence to Him is How He can Operate and How can He Manipulate"

Q: "Should India worry about the fallout of 'Memogate'?"

A.S. Dulat: "We should not worry too much just now. Unless this whole thing continues and causes more problems for the civil-military relationship in Pakistan.

"People here will be watching it very closely because it would impact the new efforts at reviving the peace process via trade and other ways…."

Q: "Coming back to Mansoor Ijaz, you are not being candid on the issue of the [Indian Prime Minister A. B.] Vajpayee government's invitation to Ijaz because you were then part of the prime minister's office."

A.S. Dulat: "I am telling you that these kind of people are not invited. These are operators. They appear from nowhere and know how to get invited. So nobody, I can assure you, nobody in the Vajpayee government would have invited him. But here somebody suddenly appears and says 'I can do this for you.'"

Q: "But I know a person to whom he showed his passport and said I am invited by the Vajpayee government and he said, 'Look at my passport; there is no stamp on it.'"

A.S. Dulat: "I don't know who this magical person is. I don't know. I am telling you what I know. He was here, he was heard about, he was known, he was flaunting big names, he was saying 'I can help you in Kashmir' …."

Q: "What did he do in Kashmir then?"

A.S. Dulat: "He met Kashmiris. Like how (Ethan Allen Chairman) Farooq Kathwari used to go and meet Kashmiris. I think he met perhaps [Kashmiri leader] Yasin Malik and some others."

Q: "What was the outcome?"

A.S. Dulat: "The line he was giving was that he can influence Kashmiris and has a line to high places in the United States and a line to Pakistan. So he can exert influence."

Q: "Then, what happened?"

A.S. Dulat: "Then, he disappeared like all operators disappear! That is what I am saying. Operators just appear and disappear…."

Q: "What are his views on Kashmir?"

A.S. Dulat: "I don't know. I never met him. I have no idea. I think for somebody like Ijaz, Kashmir is not important. He's not a Kashmiri. Kashmir is not of any consequence to him. What is of consequence to him is how he can operate and how can he manipulate. That is what these people are good at…."

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