The following are excerpts from a debate between Palestinian Authority Minister of Civil Affairs Muhammad Dahlan and Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahar, which aired on LBC TV on January 22, 2006.
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Hamas Leader Mahmoud Al-Zahar: "The Palestinian Authority is responsible for the anarchy in security, because the PA is responsible for security. If it is not capable of maintaining security, it bears the responsibility."
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"An authority that relies on prisons does not represent the Palestinian people. Prison is only for traitors, spies and collaborators, and not for mujahideen and resistance fighters."
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"If only the [Palestinian] prisons were destroyed... When France had its revolution, it destroyed the Bastille prison, and turned it into a museum. We should turn the Preventive Security headquarters into a museum."
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"Participating in the elections has become a necessity for several reasons - not only because the occupation has been removed from part of our land, but also because of the level of corruption we have reached, the level of economic and political anarchy, the great anarchy in security, the lives that are being lost in trivial feuds between clans... This security anarchy, which is being exploited for political purposes, [and] the political anarchy and the corruption have reached a point where we ourselves are building settlements, and supplying them with cement. Today, we no longer know where resources and money of the Palestinian people go."
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Palestinian Authority Minister of Civil Affairs Muhammad Dahlan: "The anarchy is not only the result of the five years of the Intifada. It began from day one, when the Hamas did not respect the results of the 1996 elections. They considered themselves an independent sovereign state which maintains foreign relations and uses weapons whenever they feel like it. They did not respect the will of the Palestinian people, which empowered the Legislative Council and President Arafat, on the basis of his platform."
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"The PA has never been given a chance to implement its platform, since 1994-1995. The Hamas movement would always place obstacles [in its path] and would implement its own platform, unless a particular plan serves the agenda of the Hamas brothers. Only then can they accept it or adapt themselves - just like in the current elections."
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"How do you explain the bombardment of the police stations in the refugee camps of Al-Shati and Jebalya by our own brothers, who should be directing these weapons at Israel, not at the police stations."
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Mahmoud Al-Zahar: "I'm telling you that you are incapable of bringing about change and reform. Only the Hamas movement is capable of this, if it implements its platform and unites everybody around it - including Fatah and the other factions. Only Hamas is capable of implementing a platform of real change and reform, because you've had your chance for 12 years, since 1994, and matters are only deteriorating."
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Muhammad Dahlan: "We [the PLO] entered the Palestinian territories in 1995, and this was when you began your operations, without recognizing the PA. When the martyr Yahya Ayyash was killed... I personally had told our brothers in Hamas that they must hide him, because Israel wanted to assassinate him. Afterwards, you retaliated with five attacks, and brought upon us the catastrophe called Netanyahu."
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"All your military commanders have been protected by the security establishment throughout this Intifada. They were provided with full protection, and Israel has accused us of this several times, and so has the American administration. I was the prominent person to be accused of this - Muhammad Deif was the leading figure [to receive protection]. When they left our protection and moved to that of Hamas, half of them were assassinated."
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"In all honesty, I don't want to open the corruption files. If I were to open these files, they would expose many Palestinian opposition leaders, who are being paid by the Palestinian Authority, out of the Palestinian taxpayer's money - and I don't want to mention names."
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Mahmoud Al-Zahar: "Between 1994-2004, the donor nations gave the PA $6 billion. Where did all this money go? Fifty-six million dollars go to salaries every month. There are $100 million in revenue every month. There are 37,000 fictitious jobs - the colonel, his wife 'the coloneless,' his son, his daughter - they all get paid, as you know very well."
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"You said in your election campaign that Al-Zahar curses the PA while receiving money from it. I didn't curse anybody. I present a clear platform, and what I receive from the PA is my own money, which was deducted from my salary when I was working as a doctor. They used to pay me 200 dinars a month, from 1972 until the Israeli authorities fired me in 1982. This is the pension I used to pay. When the PA came, and I hadn't worked for three years, and they forced me to pay $45,000 to the PA in order to receive my pension and insurance money, which I deserved."
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"What is the Fatah platform now? To curse Hamas, accuse it of lying, and make people doubt it. Tell us what your platform is. I, and all of Hamas, are talking about health, about agriculture, about the industry, and about how we view the Arab and Islamic nation, and so on. What are you talking about? 'Al-Zahar said'... 'Al-Zahar did'... 'Rantisi, may he rest in peace'... Suddenly Rantisi has become 'may he rest in peace.' A good Hamas member is a dead Hamas member, but as long as he is alive, he is in the same situation as me."
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Muhammad Dahlan: "We have not changed our spots. We continue to adhere to the PLO position, and the 1988 consensus between the factions. Our platform is clear. Politically, we want to reach an independent Palestinian state, with East Jerusalem as its capital, and to reach a just solution to the refugee problem on the basis of Resolution 194 and the Beirut summit resolution. We adhere to the political platform."
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Mahmoud Al-Zahar: "We consider Israel to be an enemy, not an ally. Israel is not a partner, and we will not maintain security cooperation with it, as [you] did. We will not cooperate with it economically or in any other way. Our ally is the Arab and Islamic nation. The Rafah crossing must be completely open."
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"We will not negotiate with Israel. They sat with them in India, in China, and who knows where, and the negotiations have reached our current situation."
Interviewer: "How do you intend to improve the situation, if you don't intend to negotiate with Israel?"
Mahmoud Al-Zahar: "Improving the situation will not come through collaboration with Israel. Improving the situation will not come through collaboration with Israel. All our problems have come from Israel. The gasoline we receive from Israel for five or six shekels costs only seven cents in Egypt. The Paris economic accord has ruined us. Money entered the pockets of people who had nothing beforehand and who have become millionaires. Ten percent of the Palestinian people are enjoying 50 percent of the national income."
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Muhammad Dahlan: "You don't want negotiations - fine. You can explain to me... I will say it in peasants' language: How do you plan to get the laborers to work if you don't want them to work in Israel? How do you expect to give them jobs in the Gaza Strip?"
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"How will you take care of our daily affairs? How does your platform address the problem of the Erez crossing? How do you plan to resolve the problem of the transfer of merchandise? How do you want to solve the problem of a citizen who wants to travel from Nablus to Tul Karem, when you are in charge? Do you plan to transfer him through a tunnel or via the Internet?"
