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Following are excerpts from an interview with Former Malaysian Prime Minister, Mahathir Mohammad, which aired on Islam Channel on August 23, 2006. The interviewer is former Sunday Express journalist Yvonne Ridley who was captured by the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2001 and converted to Islam after her release:
Mahathir Mohammad: What enabled the Israelis to do what they are doing now is the United States, so the main culprit is the United States, in particular the present government of the United States. I wouldn't blame all the Americans. A lot of Americans do not like this war, but their leadership advocates war, as a solution - not only to major problems, even minor problems - we have to kill people. These are really war criminals. That is why we think that something has to be done against the United States.
Yvonne Ridley, Interviewer: What can you do against the United States? It's a very big country, and it has an arsenal of weapons greater than the next collective 27 armies.
Mahathir Mohammad: Yes, there is of course, to this thing. When you do something to the United States they are going to retaliate. But the United States is not as powerful as it's made out to be. It is, for example, a bankrupt nation. It owes the world 14 trillion dollars, and it is truly able to finance itself and the war and the supply of arms to Israel, through the money that is lent to the United States by rich countries, some of which are Muslim countries. And if you stop using the U.S. dollar... Even if you want to sell oil, you can continue to sell oil, but insist on being paid in euros, or yen, or whatever... If you do that, then the U.S. dollar will not be half the value that it has today, and if it doesn't have the value that it has today, it cannot spend money producing arms and supporting aggressive actions by the Israelis.
Yvonne Ridley, Interviewer: So do you really think that there are Arab leaders who, if they had the will to change currency, that they could bring America to its knees?
Mahathir Mohammad: There may not be anybody who is willing to be high profile in this matter, but they can do this quietly. There are ways of doing this which would be just as effective, not sounding very belligerent.
[...]
The U.N. was set up by powerful countries, and the powerful countries consider the U.N. as their instrument, and the most powerful of all is, of course, the United States. The U.N. cannot make any decision unless the Untied States sanctions it. So the U.N. is not the U.N. anymore. It is just an extension of the United States.
[...]
Yvonne Ridley, Interviewer: During her visit to the region, she (Secretary Rice) also dropped off in Kuala Lumpur, and preformed a piano concerto in one of the capitals hotels in front of an appreciative audience. Where you there?
Mahathir Mohammad: I was not there.
Yvonne Ridley, Interviewer: Where you invited?
Mahathir Mohammad: I was not invited.
Yvonne Ridley, Interviewer: For someone who wants to see warmongers treated as social pariahs, how did you feel when you heard about her visit to Kuala Lumpur, and the way she was received?
Mahathir Mohammad: Apart from the fact that she is visiting Kuala Lumpur, not actually to visit Kuala Lumpur, but actually, to participate an international forum, I wouldn't receive her at all. I wouldn't even shake her hands.
Yvonne Ridley, Interviewer: We haven't mentioned Britain at all and Tony Blair's role in all of this.
Mahathir Mohammad: Well, that's the poodle. He's a satellite of the U.S. He dances according to the tune played by the US. Britain is a third-rate power now. It has... The only thing that it can [do] is to shine in the light of some other, more illustrious, country. So he wants to be close to the U.S., to have a little bit of his old greatness, but actually he is just doing the biddings of the U.S.
Yvonne Ridley, Interviewer: Islam Channel viewers might be shocked to hear a statesman like yourself call Tony Blair a poodle. It is something that they hear from the anti-war movement. It is something that they hear from individual politicians, like George Galloway and other peace activists, but it is probably a first from an international statesman. You have no compunction about calling the British prime minister a poodle?
Mahathir Mohammad: I've called him a liar, and it was printed in The Guardian newspaper, for example, because he was a liar. He lied to the British people that within 45 minutes Britain could by attacked by Iraq with weapons of mass destruction, when he knew very well that Iraq did not have that, and later on, he tried to explain by saying that they had to get rid of Saddam Hussein. Is he so... They have decided on going to war, so he didn't tell the British people the truth. He was a liar. I've called him a liar, and I have no compunction about calling him a poodle.
Yvonne Ridley, Interviewer: We had a bizarre scene recently where a microphone was switched on, in which the whole world could eavesdrop into the special relationship between George Bush and Tony Blair, and we heard the president of the United States, with a full mouth of food, yell: "Yo, Blair." And some... There are those who felt that the way he spoke to Tony Blair was humiliating for the British prime minister. How did you view that scenario?
Mahathir Mohammad: I'm not surprised at all at the way, that Bush treats Blair, because Blair, actually, does everything that he is asked to do by Bush. I remember Jack Straw coming here when I was prime minister, and I told Jack Straw that Britain should not be supporting the U.S. And Jack Straw told me: "No, we are there to try and persuade the U.S." In the end, it was they who were persuaded by the U.S. So, they think that they have influence, but actually, they have no influence.
Yvonne Ridley, Interviewer: Of course, Jack Straw is no longer the foreign secretary, having been quite vocal, publicly, about the possibility of America attacking Iran. I'm not sure what his exact words were, but it was to the effect that it was a ludicrous or crazy idea, and then shortly after that the foreign secretary was changed. How did you view that?
Mahathir Mohammad: Well, if I have done that to my foreign minister, they would call me a dictator - getting rid of any member of cabinet who doesn't agree with me. But when Jack Straw was removed, it shows the character of Blair - that he could not stand any opposition within his own cabinet, any different opinions being voiced by any of his ministers.
[...]
Yvonne Ridley, Interviewer: Why do you think George Bush and Tony Blair are so afraid of Islam?
Mahathir Mohammad: Well, it's very difficult to say, but they overlook their own faults, that they actually cause these people to act the way they did, by creating the State of Israel, by allowing Israel to occupy Palestinian land, and do all kinds of things to the Palestinians, which angered people, and now because these people want to get back at them, people who cause all these problems - and that's Britain and the US. So they are afraid, because they are... They may be rich, they may be powerful, they may have atom bombs, but Americans and British are no longer safe anywhere in the world.
Yvonne Ridley, Interviewer: In what way? Are you talking individually? You know, passport holders?
Mahathir Mohammad: They like to give travel advisories - not to go to this country, to that country - which means that they are not free anymore. They have to restrict themselves. They are not able to enjoy the benefits of their wealth, their ability to travel. Their jet planes and all that are useless because they can't go to certain countries because they fear being attacked. Of course, these people - they cannot attack their military. They attack... They will attack anybody else. That would be collaterals for them. So, what is to prevent an American walking in a street in some country from being shot dead? So they live in a state of fear now.
[...]
It may not be a plane crashing into a building, but there would be other things that can happen. It may be against individuals, it may be against groups, against small towns, against buildings. With terrorists and their unconventional ways, you can never be certain where and how they would strike. So whereas America in the Second World War was totally free from attacks, it is no longer free from such attacks. And I think it is feeling very uncomfortable.
[...]
They may perhaps be able to put Al-Qaeda out of commission, but that does not mean that there will not be other groups. They have been killing so-called terrorist all these years, but there'll simply be more and more terrorists. In Iraq there were no terrorists before - now we have terrorists in Iraq. And now because of this attack on Lebanon, many many new terrorists - so-called terrorists - are going to make that decision that, well, that if we cannot fight them with guns and bombs and airplanes and all that, we'll fight them by killing at random. That is what is going to happen.
Yvonne Ridley, Interviewer: We can't finish with the war on terror until I ask about your views on Osama Bin Laden, what do you think of him, and if you think he's still alive.
Mahathir Mohammad: I think he is still alive. He is the creation of the Americans, as everybody knows. You play with the devil, then of course, you get hurt. You created Osama Bin Laden to serve your purpose, and this is something that the Americans have done very many times. Noriega was one of the people whom they created, and now they have arrested him and put him in jail for life. But Osama Bin Laden has caught the imagination of a lot of people. And the present leader of Hizbullah, Nasrallah, he's not Osama Bin Laden's man, but he fights in the same way, for the same reason. So there will be very many people whom we may call Osama Bin Laden also - people who are very angry and who have no other means of fighting accept the way Osama fought. He may be killed one day, but it's not going to stop the terrorist... the so-called terrorist attacks.
Yvonne Ridley, Interviewer: And, of course, another one-time great friend of America was Saddam Hussein. What do you think when you see him standing in the dock, in this very animated trail, which has been going on for many months now in Baghdad?
Mahathir Mohammad: It is a farce. it is not a trial. It is a kangaroo court. If you are tried by your enemies, you can't expect justice. If there is to be any trial, you have to have a neutral court - people who are not in any way involved or biased. Then there will be a fair trial. But here you see a trial by his prosecutors, who are also the judges. How can you expect any justice? There is no justice.
[...]
All the forces which were kept under by Saddam, have now been released, and they will fight each other. There will be a civil war. I feel very sad about it, because really should join together to fight the common enemy. And the common enemy is the U.S. with its manipulation and Israel which is its proxy.
[...]
Yvonne Ridley, Interviewer: What do you see as the final solution in Palestine?
Mahathir Mohammad: Well, I think, in the first place, if Israel wants to be recognized as a state, it should withdraw back to its borders. It should allow the Palestinians who were expelled to come back and to own their houses and their farms again. And then we will see a process of democracy working in Israel. And if it so happens that the Arabs win in any democratic elections - they must be allowed to rule Israel. We could call it Israel, but it may not be just the land of the Jews, because this is racism taken to the extreme - when you only allow one race to rule the country.
[...]
I think even Islam Channel must explain that war can only be fought under certain conditions, and as far as possible, of course, we don't do what the enemy does. If the enemy kills civilians, we should not kill civilians. We should be more discriminating. We should think and strategize, before we act. We should not allow our emotions to take control of us, and just merely seek revenge without any ultimate objective.
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